tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post613781217922953813..comments2024-03-12T12:23:10.033-04:00Comments on Secular Perspectives: General Myers and His Endless War on ErrorUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-63011184141148617612012-04-29T23:50:39.211-04:002012-04-29T23:50:39.211-04:00PZ is a keyboard slacktivist who, like many others...PZ is a keyboard slacktivist who, like many others, will feel exceedingly silly on his deathbed when environmental crises have plunged much of the world into chaos and bloodshed, and he realizes he wasted his life screaming and hollering about whether cartoon bunnies are sexist or whether an extraordinarily untalented blogger maybe got hit on in an elevator.<br /><br />He is worse than the Comic Book Guy. He has extremely stupid priorities. He is a mediocre academic who hasn't published past 1994. He is far less rational than he thinks he is. In short, he's a joke.<br /><br />And that's all that needs to be said about him.Abdullahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-22390672328402866562012-04-24T20:09:49.454-04:002012-04-24T20:09:49.454-04:00I disliked PZ's blog, its language of war and ...I disliked PZ's blog, its language of war and violence. Yes, I get that there's a lot of anger against a right wing Christianist influence in this country. But I don't at all like setting up science as a counter-religion on the attack, and I tire of the professionally Angry Atheists, or perhaps better described as anti-theists.<br /><br />I am a scientist, an atheist, a feminist, a liberal, and a lesbian. I am also married (pre-PropH8) to another woman who is a devout EPiscopalian, active in her church and guess what? We do together just fine. In fact I enjoy going to church with her, for cultural reasons, and because her faith community is one of intelligent folk who understand ideas of <i>mythos</i> and that stories and myths we tell give us meaning, just like the sonnets of Shakespeare or the epics of Homer. Do they really believe in the resurrection of Christ, or is that a symbol from a story? I'm sure they run the gamut (being Episcopalian) <i>but so what?</i> I like them, I like how they live their faith in everyday life,and I see no conflict between me and them.<br /><br />The image of religion and God that the Professional Atheists are protesting is too often just the image of God on the roof of the Sistine chapel.That's not the image of God held by my wife, or her fellow congregants (gay-marriage supporting, evolution believing, environmentally aware ecumenists that they are.) I find I can live perfectly happily amidst a community of people who equally respect my rights to live as I believe--or not as the case may be. Whether I believe their faith is merely a pattern of neuronal firing in their brain, or they believe it is something transcendent from a God, what's the difference? If they get inspiration from their myths, and live accordingly, that's not a bad thing.<br /><br />So, as an active scientist and atheist, I really was offended by PZ Myer's blog and am glad to see this more reasoned response. We should build bridges, not burn them. and yes, anger is not a strategy.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-88028031260844396322012-04-22T20:12:26.606-04:002012-04-22T20:12:26.606-04:00@Gadfly - THANK YOU. Exactly.
@PZ Critic - YES! T...@Gadfly - THANK YOU. Exactly.<br /><br />@PZ Critic - YES! Thank you!!<br />I'd like to add that this comment also takes care of my point that we can't reduce the situation down to "Let PZ and the angry confrontational atheists do atheism the way they want and let the "accommodationists" do it how they want. BTW, I prefer to refer to the latter camp as "those with at least a basic understanding of psychology in general, psychology and sociology of religion, etc." PZ is a huge influence and as such, his ignorance is making it easier for new atheists to stay ignorant too. Finally, PZ cannot agree that people ought to be able to do atheism the way they want because he continually dictates what "real atheists'" approach should be!<br /><br />@JD Mack - Haven't heard a peep from Myers yet... With the women in secularism conference coming up soon, and his weird tribute to women in his essay, I have a theory he won't say anything to me because I'm a woman - he's such a good feminist.<br /><br />@Macdaddy - violent rhetoric can be misinterpreted as a call to violent action - history demonstrates this. I know it was metaphor, but that is dangerous on its own, and morally repugnant.<br /><br />@Wyatt - I already thanked you on FB :)<br /><br />@Steve A - right, there is a danger in violent rhetoric - we can't write it off as just words - some take metaphor literally. <br /><br />@Shiloh - thanks for sharing that. Damn shame, sorry to hear it. I've heard similar stories - e.g., a student who reached out to him with honest questions, and PZ decided to ridicule the kid on his blog instead of having a civil conversation with the student offline (student was confused about some scientific issue, I don't remember.)<br /><br />General comment - Isn't it bizarre to claim that there is room for anger as strategy in achieving any goal? ANGER DOESN'T SOLVE PROBLEMS. Let's substitute that with assertive well-articulated criticism. Assertiveness does not mean passivity folks.<br /><br />Thank you for the comments.Sarah Hippolitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02376180447149109381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-13641550213875334812012-04-21T11:01:30.674-04:002012-04-21T11:01:30.674-04:00People who say "One Man's Blogpost" ...People who say "One Man's Blogpost" neglect to recognise that this was:<br /><br />The TRANSCRIPT of a SPEECH at one of the largest atheist conventions in the world, the Global Atheist Convention. About 4500 people, not including the readers online which number in the 100,000 and the potential buyers of the convention DVD.<br /><br />He's influential, both online and in the real world. Fact.<br /><br />There's room for plenty of people, but to dismiss his influence upon what could be otherwise more considerate atheists is misguided at best.PZ Criticnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-32514704583629663512012-04-19T22:56:08.119-04:002012-04-19T22:56:08.119-04:00I am a Christian and I appreciate your essay. Like...I am a Christian and I appreciate your essay. Like you, I seek to find common ground with anyone else who wants to make this world a better place. I reposted a link to your post on my <a href="http://www.facebook.com/wyatt.roberts" rel="nofollow">facebook page</a>.<br /><br />Again, nice job. Keep up the good work :)Wyatt Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15580611892079902563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-19532789613127541032012-04-19T22:54:15.351-04:002012-04-19T22:54:15.351-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Wyatt Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15580611892079902563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-40069366772243412512012-04-18T10:24:42.946-04:002012-04-18T10:24:42.946-04:00Myers confronts the warmongering legacy of an este...Myers confronts the warmongering legacy of an esteemed atheist in "The Dark Side of [Christopher] Hitchens" on his blog dated December 16th, 2011. He says, "I remember [Hitchen's] talk at a FFRF meeting that dismayed the audience. He promoted jingoistic violence as the solution to everything in the Middle East." Later, Myers summarizes with, "Hitchens was a complicated fellow: talented and intelligent, and on some subjects he was warm and humane and a true child of the Enlightenment. And on others, a bloodthirsty barbarian and a club-carrying primitive."<br /><br />I recognize that Myers in Australia was using war speech as a metaphor, and not calling for actual violence, being more interested in the clash of ideas than weapons, but some in an audience used to the rhetoric of Hitchens and his call for and support of actual military violence as a solution (in some cases, at least) might be forgiven for misinterpreting Myers' metaphors as a call to actual battle.SocketRockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256679663031232516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-64807686457768645972012-04-17T21:56:21.280-04:002012-04-17T21:56:21.280-04:00Another faitheist whining because PZ Myers and the...Another faitheist whining because PZ Myers and the other gnu atheists aren't sucking up to goddists. Look, you guys can be nice to the goddists, make them tea, and soothe their feelings of outrage that some atheists are out of the closet and asking rude questions like "what's your evidence for gods?". We'll do the heavy lifting, confronting goddists who oppose same-sex marriage because "god thinks what gays do in bed is icky" and trying to have science education replaced with a 2500 year old myth stolen from the Babylonians. You don't have to thank us. We know you're too arrogant to do so.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15375973697938997176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-61355033413196342812012-04-17T21:46:30.580-04:002012-04-17T21:46:30.580-04:00Actually, science, or more accurately reason, is p...Actually, science, or more accurately reason, is perhaps the best guide we have for ethical behavior. Without it, we have to rely upon our evolved since of morality, which can be pretty biased. Steven Pinker explains it nicely:<br /><br />http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate/steven-pinker-3<br /><br />I agree that PZ is often inflammatory, and I'd prefer information delivered in a more cerebral tone. However, I also think it's invaluable at this point in time for someone to fling a little mud at our sacred cows.Marty Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05458127678340064242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-17210734776856939762012-04-17T21:08:53.864-04:002012-04-17T21:08:53.864-04:00I am sorry Shiloh, you are just wrong. Our univers...I am sorry Shiloh, you are just wrong. Our universe is by no means "fine tuned". For starters, only 5% of it is stuff that could even potentially support life, 95% of it is dark matter and dark energy. Second, the universe existed for many billions of years with no life in it, and most of the space in universe is empty and absolutely free of life. You may wonder how is it that the most prominent physicists disagree with you: Stephen Hawking, Victor Stenger, Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss. I don't know what specific "fine tuned" values you are referring to but here is a book tackling and debunking them one by one:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/The-Fallacy-Fine-Tuning-Universe-Designed/dp/1616144432/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334711215&sr=8-1<br /><br />Lastly, you may want to check your facts before you start hurling accusations like "the only free though he is interested in is his own".Hoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922760916006173291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-7817182262587214242012-04-17T20:49:59.341-04:002012-04-17T20:49:59.341-04:00Sarah, thank you! I really enjoyed your comments ...Sarah, thank you! I really enjoyed your comments and find I mostly agree with you. I have been on PZ Meyer's site and argued that I was an agnostic with theist leanings and tried to explain why I feel a creator might be necessary, though I admitted that I didn't have proof one way or the other. I struck up a discussion with some of his blog faithful only to have PZ suddenly drop in on the discussion call me a bunch of nasty names and then banning me from his site, which was upsetting because I was hoping he would check in and provide me with his wisdom why he thought I was wrong. Instead he acted like a jerk. Frankly, I was unimpressed. I find it ironic that he is also on the freethought blog since the only free thought he is interested in is his own and to be surrounded by a bunch of people who parrot his beliefs. BTW, though I cannot prove or disprove a creator or prove that quantum mechanics brought something from nothing since nothing is supposed to be unstable or that there are multiple universes which explains why one of them, ours had all the finely tuned parameters necessary for life of any kind, what I can be proven is that religions are simply the belief that there is a god and an attempt to explain what this god is like. If there really is a god, then I submit that no body knows what it is like.Shilohnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-85196133760717125592012-04-17T17:28:09.033-04:002012-04-17T17:28:09.033-04:00When Mr. Myers uses language such as, "we are...When Mr. Myers uses language such as, "we are galloping towards the central ideas of their identity, and we aim to tear down their walls and replace their obsolete myths" he is not talking about people or cities. He is talking about ideas and superstitions. You do not make that distinction and take his meaning to the extreme by saying he wants to "literally" attack his enemies. There is a big and important difference.Macdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10716646596496286390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-17760933833421734702012-04-17T15:59:52.815-04:002012-04-17T15:59:52.815-04:00To call PZ the "mirror image" of fundame...To call PZ the "mirror image" of fundamentalists is false equivalence. PZ is not trying ti corrupt science. PZ is not enriching himself off of people paying him a tenth of their income. He is not trying to ruin the lives of gay people because voices in his head tell him to. He is not denying climate change because Genesis says it cannot be so.<br />Let's be fair. PZ Myers has done more to make evolutionary science mainstream that (perhaps) any of us here. His choice of language, or lack of a background in philosophy, does not make him a fundamentalist. I am yet to see Myers or Dawkins declare a book or person infallible.Hoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922760916006173291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-42099354172240953282012-04-17T00:21:47.578-04:002012-04-17T00:21:47.578-04:00I'm doing the same thing as PZ, but in a nice ...I'm doing the same thing as PZ, but in a nice way and using respect. Many of my debate videos are posted here:<br />http://www.youtube.com/user/SecHummer/videos<br /><br />Upcoming events for the Portland OR. and Vancouver WA. areas:<br />http://www.meetup.com/WestsideTalk/Bernie Dehlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03919318328504104290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-44526196609377188752012-04-16T23:52:26.714-04:002012-04-16T23:52:26.714-04:00I disagree with you gadfly. I think people such a...I disagree with you gadfly. I think people such as Pigliucci and Boyer make poor arguments. The arguments of the modern atheists, including PZ, are much better on the merits. The atheism advocacy, we can call it evangelism, is not mirror image of religious evangelism simply because the former are correct in their reasoning and the latter are very mistaken in their reasoning. All advocacy isn't equally bad or good or equally correct or mistaken. Nor is a refusal to publically advocate better than a commitment to advocate.Explicit Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05501109533475045969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-28714379842309264002012-04-16T23:05:12.557-04:002012-04-16T23:05:12.557-04:00Oh, forgot to note on my first post. If Gnus would...Oh, forgot to note on my first post. If Gnus would read Scott Atran and Pascal Boyer with an open mind, they wouldn't say half the shite they do.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-82204583171074108902012-04-16T23:04:17.949-04:002012-04-16T23:04:17.949-04:00Beyond not tapping into social sciences at all, PZ...Beyond not tapping into social sciences at all, PZ and his "cadre" (he's used the phrase about the followers he wants, so it's fair game) he's not into philosophy at all, as DeDora and Pigliucci both well know, too.<br /><br />Let's be honest: He's an *evangelist* for Gnu Atheism, the mirror side of the fundies whose god he wants to kill.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-70326721094810297212012-04-16T22:45:41.285-04:002012-04-16T22:45:41.285-04:00Thanks, Ashley, for a well written post and answer...Thanks, Ashley, for a well written post and answer. I agree, there IS room for the "angry" atheists as well as other methods of approach.<br /><br />It's all depending on your audience, and PZ's audience isn't christian! My own journey into this community was sparked by PZ's column, right around the time he got refused entry to that christian movie a few years ago. That was my introduction to the atheist community, and it parked something that brought me on board and kept me here.<br /><br />Like it or not, the atheist community IS a beleaguered minority. We get marginalized, spit upon, ignored, challenged, threatened and, yes, even killed. <br /><br />When this society begins to accept atheists as respected members of society and both listens to us and stops pushing their fantasies onto us through government power, then I might concede that your points against PZ may have some validity. Until then, perhaps you should be a bit more inclusive and less sensitive of different opinions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05578145425454731854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-33943931666813593582012-04-16T22:39:48.912-04:002012-04-16T22:39:48.912-04:00I disagree with some of what Chris Mooney says, an...I disagree with some of what Chris Mooney says, and I also disagree with some of what PZ Myers says. I disagree with PZ Myers when he says things such as "I don't like you" where "you" refers to anyone who has any religious beliefs that are disfavored by the evidence. While it makes sense to choose friends who share your own strongly held opinions, it is doctrinaire and immature to declare that you dislike anyone and everyone merely because they are mistaken in their beliefs, as PZ Myers does. He is either pulling his audiences legs or he is unbalanced, either way it's not good. On the other hand, I agree 100% with PZ that theism is disfavored by the evidence, and I agree 100% with his publicly criticizing liberal and moderate religion along with conservative and right wing religion. I disagree with Mooney's advocacy for a double standard exemption against legitimate criticism of liberal and moderate religious beliefs. Basically, I don't pay much attention to either of them. I prefer atheist advocates like Professor Matt McCormick and Jason Rosenhouse. They are both very good.Explicit Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05501109533475045969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-21805336729679464232012-04-16T21:41:02.606-04:002012-04-16T21:41:02.606-04:00I disagree with the premise that one man's blo...I disagree with the premise that one man's blog post, regardless of how influential he is, has the ability to *kill* the atheist chance of living in a religion-free world or a world safe for them. In the same way that the black panthers and PETA haven't destroyed African Americans' or animal rights activists' ability to live in a racism or animal cruelty opposed world.<br /><br />Yes, his violent language is deliberate, and an attempt to inspire passion in a group that has a tendency to be apathetic and active only online. The purpose of this post isn't to convince the religious of anything. Hence the calling of the religious the "them", this essay isn't for them. And I think interpreting it as literally violent is misunderstanding it deliberately.<br /><br />Is this to rile a "fan base" or is it to rile a beleaguered minority? Is it fair to dismiss people who think that PZ is worth reading are simply "angry atheist fans" -- talk about dismissive!<br /><br />I agree with your assertion that PZ does not refer enough to philosophy or the so-called soft sciences, but I do not thing that makes his point-of-view invalid. He thinks that science bridges differences, and that science can prescribe morality, and he's not alone in that view. (See: Sam Harris)<br /><br />Do we need alternate communities? Yes. Does PZ offer an alternate community that appeals to a large number of people? Yes. Do we think everyone is going to want to be in the exact same kind of community just because they're none believers? Of course not. Is it rational and just to exclude people from your friend group? Yes. We are not required to like everyone, and people who I think are bad or doing bad things are usually not my friends. Being willing to work with a person on social issues is not the same as wanting them to hang out with you and watch Star Trek.<br /><br />As for progressive political/social agendas, these have always been associated with secularists rather than the extremely religious. Or do you mean to say that you think the Christian Right is suddenly going to do an about-face and declare that women do have rights to control their own bodies and LGBT people are actually people? Yes, the least traditionally religious of the religious have always been progressive, because they reject so much of what religion asks of them.<br /><br />The animosity you're sensing from him comes in large measure from the truly horrific things perpetrated upon those of us who are not straight white Christian men. LGBT and feminists may not be atheists, but they certainly shouldn't be Christians. Some are, and I believe, as does PZ, that they are only hurting themselves by subjugating themselves to a book that hates them so much.<br /><br />As for your claim that people like PZ aren't helping, let me ask you for some proof. How many people have been brought to the fold of secularism thanks to the loud, angry people like PZ, Hitch, and Dawkins? Why were there 20k people at the reason rally instead of 3k?<br /><br />There's room for both of us! There's room for angry atheists, for militant atheists, for conciliatory atheists, for Christian-loving atheists, for Christian-hating atheists, for interfaith atheists, for anti-faith atheists, for philosopher atheists, for scientist atheists, for upside down and rightside up atheists. And having all those different voices makes us stronger and better. This shouldn't be a war of which kind of atheism is better, which PZ can be incredibly guilty of himself, it should be a war of ideas.<br /><br />http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/02/what-can-the-atheist-movement-learn-from-the-gay-movement.htmlAshley F. Millerhttp://ashleyfmiller.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-36350836810073810722012-04-16T21:23:11.701-04:002012-04-16T21:23:11.701-04:00So, I wonder what scathing insult PZ will choose f...So, I wonder what scathing insult PZ will choose for you in his response. "Witless wanker" was already bestowed upon Michael Dd Dora.J. D. Macknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10856048.post-90950193595249536832012-04-16T21:13:09.228-04:002012-04-16T21:13:09.228-04:00Thanks for your post.
Being bombastic and vitriol...Thanks for your post.<br /><br />Being bombastic and vitriolic for any cause is unseemly and ultimately ineffective.<br /><br />Oddly, I was thinking I have "met" some very knowledgeable people on Google +, but they come with a heavy need to correct people. I worry this type of talk and attitude is harming science more than helping.Joanne (@sciencegoddess)http://www.joannelovesscience.comnoreply@blogger.com